Monday, March 12, 2007

Monday Thread

In case you missed it, Sean Hannity's "Enemy of the Week" was Hugo Chavez. (The segment used to be called "Enemy of the State," but it was changed a week after the show debuted. Too Stalinish.)

Hannities enemies are always strongmen or Hollywood celebs. Except the time he picked the mayor of Philadelphia.

270 comments:

1 – 200 of 270   Newer›   Newest»
Not Sam said...

Anyone see the Twinkie segment on Fox News? Who knew America's most delicious dessert treat contains three different types of rocks!

Seder-riffic said...

So..uh....

what's the Arbitrons for ol' Hannity compared to the massive dynamo ratings of Sam Seder, King of All Crystal Radio Sets?

Anonymous said...

FOX compares move.org and the daily kos to Stalin

my Mom watches that channel

now she probably thinks I have fallen into some kind of online cabal

I hope see didn't see that


-conbo

Anonymous said...

re:ted haggard massage table

ew ew ew ew

-conbo

juicey said...

Sammy, You gotta love that Hugo Chavez dosent want to bankrupt the American Middle class just juice us for a higher oil tax it isnt America he has a problem with its Bush El Diablo.

Chavez is a prick up your ass.
Im glad you enjoy being his butt boy.

Fox is full of asswipes but cmon SAM Chavez is funding Hezbollah and Hamas

Anonymous said...

i see the alternate universe has arrived

ciao

-conbo

impeach, indict, and imprison said...

here it is, two hours later and i'm still worked up over HR. this bozo is a genuine f'tard. first he tell's us that we're wrong to criticize the chimp because it emboldens our enemies. then he confuses reality with a the tv show 24 saying we're going to get nuked any day. and now on the top of the hour news darth cheney is at it again saying the democrats resolution supports our enemies.

when the hell are our representatives going to stand up and say enough is enough and impeach the whole lot of these evil mother'fin idiots who have done nothing but rape and pillage and destroy the middle class.

Only the strong survive said...

Capitalism -

One radio show fighting with another to sell radio advertisements. Why should I advertise on your station. Where is the payoff for me?

Sell or die said...

Survival of the fittest-

By killing off the shows that can not sell ads, we strengthen the overall quality of the radio market.

Spock said...

Live long and prosper -

Show that flourish in the marketplace tend to spawn additional radio show with a similar outlook.

Darwin said...

Cull the herd -

By killing off show that that can not show a positive cash flow, we get rid of shows to which people will not listen

toniD said...

Sen. Schumer Calls On Karl Rove To Testify »
In a new statement, Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) has asked the Senate Judiciary Committee to call on top White House aide Karl Rove to testify over the U.S. Attorney purge. The White House acknowledged yesterday that Rove “served as a conduit for complaints about federal prosecutors. From Schumer’s statement:

“The more we learn, the more it seems that people at high levels in the White House have been involved in the U.S. Attorney purge,” Schumer said. … “There’s an emerging pattern that is extremely disturbing and everyday the sanctity of U.S. Attorneys as neutral enforcers of law without fear or favor is diminished,” Schumer said. “We will get to bottom of this.”

New York Times columnist Paul Krugman went through the record on Rove’s involvement in his column today:

Sources told Newsweek that the list of prosecutors to be fired was drawn up by Mr. Gonzales’s chief of staff, “with input from the White House.” And Allen Weh, the chairman of the New Mexico Republican Party, told McClatchy News that he twice sought Karl Rove’s help — the first time via a liaison, the second time in person — in getting David Iglesias, the state’s U.S. attorney, fired for failing to indict Democrats. “He’s gone,” he claims Mr. Rove said.

After that story hit the wires, Mr. Weh claimed that his conversation with Mr. Rove took place after the decision to fire Mr. Iglesias had already been taken. Even if that’s true, Mr. Rove should have told Mr. Weh that political interference in matters of justice is out of bounds; Mr. Weh’s account of what he said sounds instead like the swaggering of a two-bit thug.

Also yesterday, House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers (D-MI) and Rep. Linda Sanchez (D-CA) declared their intention to question Rove “about any role he may have played in the firing of eight U.S. attorneys.”

Rove not out of it yet!

juicey said...

Chavez Citgo Oil group does 32 billion dollars worth of business per year in the united states perhaps more now that my oil bill has doubled.
If Citgo makes good on thier promise of a four hundred million dollar subsidy for the poor. More likely they will perform as wellas Bernie sanders promises of Chavez oil. Bernie identified 800 deserving Vermonters last march delivered oil to only four hundred last spring.
If Chavez does the half assed job Sanders did who benifits from his PR campaign?
I believe that there are poor people suffering, I also believe in delivering on promises.
Chavez has entered into an aliance with Nigeria and Iran and is funding insurgencies in the middle east terrorists if you support that behavior go ahead. We are receiving a pittance of the increased energy spending that Chavez has wrung out of the United States of Americas middle class. His megalomaniacal quest to rule south America, and any benefits for the poor there, beyond rhetoric, have yet to be proven. What has been proven is Chavez's willingness to silence his opposition, and quash democracy.
I hate George Bush( hate may not be strong enough) let me be perfectly clear on this he is a moron and a disappointment as a world leader.
But Chavez is a piece of shit pretending to be chocolate.

Anonymous said...

juicey

your a farkin idiot

you are frothing at the mouth

please

get a rabies shot

-conbo

bibimimi troll'p said...

liberal hate-speech, sean?

mr pot, mr kettle on the line, and he'll call ya black NOW!

Sunshine said...

hee!

supoena power!

tain't much but neither is a taint!

Alice said...

http://www.mealsmatter.org/

Dennis Rulez said...

Amazing...

Dennis Kucinich, the only guy the Bloggo Left would find truly "pure" as a progressive....

and he calls them gutless for not wanting to go on Fox!

While the "RINOs" opt out and are praised for it!

Alice said...

Where to Protest Peacefully [other than anywhere you see Hillary Clinton]

LONG



LIST

toniD said...

BBL

dada said...

Hugo Chavez is bad, bad man! He steals from the poor, and he buys terrorist soup with the money!

Bush is dictator, but Chavez wants to be Bush!

Very bad, bad man.

juicey said...

conbo you are an idiot my friend.
Chavez is buggering America and because he says he is doing it in the name of El Diablo all you fucking liberal wankers are willing to support him.
Look Up Sanders Chavez oil deal with Joe Kennedy last year 800 families in Vermont were identified as in need of assistance Sanders delivered to four hundred. A half assed attempt, if they are poor and need help you had better get off your ass and deliver the goods.
Chavez and Bush are two pieces of shit but they are two completely different pieces of shit I dont eat shit.
Look what happened today moron Citgo sold off their US oil refineries. What does that mean to you? Will be paying a much higher price at the pump, qas a middle class American it will be harder for me to save and pay for health care save for college tuition for my kids and heat my home. American middle class refinery workers and their families are out on their butts homeless. Move your butt to Venezuela live under the boot of a dictator be my guest.

dada said...

Hugo is bad! I hear from all my friends and newspapers!

juicey said...

nuclear soup toxic swill to be spat in your eyes.

dada said...

"What has been proven is Chavez's willingness to silence his opposition, and quash democracy."

You can't hide behind "free speech." You have to draw the line somewhere. When media outlets call themselves "news" but are really nothing but propaganda, that's not free speech. It's misleading, it's a lie, and it's dangerous. We put up with it here because we are forced to. Big money rules.

dada said...

juicey said...

"nuclear soup toxic swill to be spat in your eyes."

++++

Sounds like a Russian curse. Russians have great curses. Very creative.

bibimimi troll'p said...

keith olbermann interview:

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/16868901.htm

dada said...

Air America is on the air only because of shadowy forces manipulating the marketplace. Free trade is being undermined by unnatural means. The invisible hand strikes again.

Damn you, Bavarian illuminati!

Anonymous said...

I don't that much about Chavez, Juicey

I can't get an opinion on him that is not biased

I think the people in Venezuala are still poor under his leadership
and I think that is dismaying considering his platform. Other than that I don't know.

Until I see some actual unbiased reports about him, I don't know what to think.

You are an reactionary idiot, Juicey-one who thinks he's clever.

Being reactionary is like hiccuping.

Body functions are not clever

-conbo

? said...

so, i just went on the air america website and one of the banner (the one on top of the page) was for John McCain. i think though it is by chance because it changed when i refreshed the page. i understand that it is a business thing and all, but does AAR need to be associated with him since he has done a totally 360 on issues that are important to the democratic party and to the majority of AAR listeners. he isn't the "maverick" that everyone paints him to be. he panders (though i know most politicain do) has gone back on all that he has said he stood for (freedom of choice, religion, etc.). anyways, just wanted to put in my 2 cents. happy blogging to all!

Alice said...

Bush mouths support for "social justice" while asserting US interests in Latin America

In a speech delivered on the eve of his trip to Latin America this week, US President George W. Bush cast his administration as a champion of "social justice" in the region. This hypocritical posturing is designed to conceal the real agenda of the American president's tour, which is to reassert US imperialism's power in its "own backyard" and to counter growing popular unrest that threatens its strategic interests.
...

Alice said...

...
When Bush returns and finds out that his trip has done little to alter the growing leftist trend of Latin America, the iron fist of the new Deputy Secretary of State, John Negroponte, will take control of US policy. Negroponte as ambassador to Honduras helped run the contra war in Nicaragua in the 1980’s, which murdered thousands of innocent civilians in Honduras as well as Nicaragua, and he is known to believe that more aggressive measures have to be taken against Chavez and the gathering storm in Latin America. He comes to his new post after serving as Director of National Intelligence, and prior to that ambassador in Bagdhad. Given that Condoleezza Rice has little expertise in Latin America, Negroponte will set policy for the region, overriding the few remaining moderates in the State Department’s office of Hemispheric Affairs.

With Negroponte we can expect a marked increase in US covert operations, aimed not only at Chavez in Venezuela, but also at the other governments and the popular movements in the region that are leading the charge against the historic US domination of Latin America and are bent on constructing more equitable societies.

http://64.191.57.43/articles.php?artno=1977..

Shawn said...

John Dean was on Randi Rhodes' show on Thursday and dropped open this U.S. Attorney scandal further by suggesting that the new A.G.s were put in place so that they could beef up their resumes before receiving judicial nominations.

Alice said...

Why don't you try the Council on Hemispheric Affairs, conbo.....?

coha.org

OR

Try my blog...in case you haven't read anything I've posted here in near 3 yrs...it's about South america & central america...You can search it for Chavez or use the zoomtag cloud...

http://pscelebrities.com/alice/

I don't only post 'good' news about Chavez ...my blog shows economic numbers too...

p.s. I support Zapatistas...NO government is good government...(unless it's a good government council like the Zaps have...which btw..the Zap- autonomous zones are being invaded by paramilitaries now....

Alice said...

Hey juicy....did you know that there was an attempted coup in Venezuela in 2002? & that Bush knew about it....?

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/29/1448220
CIA Documents Show Bush Knew of 2002 Coup in Venezuela

Alice said...

I'm not interested in defending Chavez, or Morales or Correa for that matter...

Anonymous said...

thanks Alice...

i will read it

:)

-conbo

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Hi Alice.

Alice said...

Hi NC...

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Cop kills Trini in Brooklyn

Police Say Brooklyn Shooting Was Justified

dada said...

"Liberalism, austere in political trifles, has learned ever more artfully to unite a constant protest against the government with a constant submission to it.” ~ Alexander Herzen

Only a liberal would say something like that.

Anonymous said...

hey thanks again shell

this is a good site

-conbo

Alice said...

Is that a dijereedoo in Pity & The Fool, dada?

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Transit Guard Is Fatally Shot in Brooklyn

dada said...

"Is that a dijereedoo in Pity & The Fool, dada?"

Nah, that's my synthesizer. I'm moving one of the levers manually instead of letting it run on automatic, which gives that organic feel to it.

dada said...

“We have wasted our spirit in the regions of the abstract and general just as the monks let it wither in the world of prayer and contemplation.” Herzen

It's true.

Alice said...

"Enabling" a False Perception: Hugo Chavez, the Press and the "Rule By Decree" Meme in Venezuela

Alice said...

Cool..it sounds like the instrument..how magical...

Hugo "Presidente-para-Vive" Chavez said...

Hehe...hey gringos!

I'm nationalizing the Venezuelan telecommunications system and hiring goons to rough up my opponents...but...

Hey..."Bush es stupido y malo!"


(There, they'll give me a pass for anything now!)

Anonymous said...

//Hugo "Presidente-para-Vive" Chavez said... //

please provide some links from a credible news source

i am interested in your viewpoints

not really but finding articles will keep you busy

-conbo

dada said...

Hugo Chavez is a market distortion!

dada said...

Socialism is for lovers.

toniD said...

More on the Haliburton Move

Raw Story is reporting that "Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) is calling on the U.S. Treasury to ensure that a controversial Houston-based multinational corporation, Halliburton, is not benefiting financially from the move of its headquarters to the United Arab Emirates".

Alice said...

President Bush v. Hugo Chavez: A Discussion on the State of Politics in Latin America

AMY GOODMAN: What about President Bush's stressing ethanol? How significant is this, making an ethanol deal in Brazil, going to talk about it in Guatemala?

GREG GRANDIN: Yeah, I think this is the substance of the tour. I think the other stuff is really just fluff, as all of a sudden Bush has concern for social justice, that he feels Latin America's pain. I mean, it’s a little -- it's kind of an anemic program that he's offering. In many ways, it's not Chavez that's shadowing Bush, it's Bush that's shadowing Chavez, in terms of these social issues, the programs that he’s offering in terms of housing and education and healthcare -- really minimal.

It's the ethanol, which is key -- ethanol and an attempt to kind of build up an alternative to Chavez in Brazil and in Uruguay. Ethanol is key to that because it solves a number of problems if it actually does advance. One is it clearly creates an alternative to oil, which is the base of Chavez's power. But then, also, in order for the United States to meet its ethanol requirements, the goals that Bush laid out, it's going to have to import most of the ethanol from foreign countries. If it relied just on corn production in the US, it would totally skew and throw off balance the United States's complex food supply system. So it needs to turn to the Americas. So in many ways, when I say that Latin America is a strategic reserve, I’m not using it as a metaphor. It actually is, in terms of raw materials, when the United States is trying to turn Latin America into a supplier of ethanol.

And it's not just Brazil. I think his trip to Guatemala, his including Guatemala in his itinerary, is telling, because Guatemala has one of the most advanced sugar industries in, not just in Central America, but in Latin America. It's very competitive, very productive. And one of the things that has irked Guatemalan sugar producers is the tariffs that the US continues to place on sugar imports from Latin America. This is a way, I think, of trying to kind of consolidate that, the sugar production, but specifically for ethanol and specifically as a way of importing ethanol in order not to throw off balance corn production and raise the price of grain in the United States.

AMY GOODMAN: Greg Grandin, I wanted to ask you, on a slightly separate issue, but this issue of the Salvador Option that is always talked about for Iraq, that includes the very same people, the military officer, Steele, who was in El Salvador in the 1980s, the training of the Green Berets, the secret working with the death squads of El Salvador, and talking about it as an option today in a positive light in Iraq.

GREG GRANDIN: Yeah. Well, I think it's a euphemism for the imperial use of force and repression in order to restore order. The United States could talk all it wants about bringing democracy and meaningful development to the world. But the fact is that when opposition to its ambitions manifests itself, as an empire, as a superpower, it will resort to force and violence, often through proxies. That's the Salvador Option. That's what they mean by the Salvador Option: the use of repressive paramilitaries, repressive mercenaries, in order to establish authority, establish stability in the imperial periphery. And that's what it means, and obviously it comes from El Salvador, a country most closely linked, identified with death squads. But it wasn't just El Salvador. It was Chile and Argentina and Guatemala and many other countries in Latin America that resorted to the use of death squads often with the encouragement or tacit approval of the United States.

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

This guy is world famous now.
He made his mark...

New York mugger attacks women 101, 85 - Hindustan Times

toniD said...

Rep. Waxman, the bull dog of the House of Reps, is going after Condi now....

Waxman to Rice: Answer 11 ignored letters on Iraq claims

The Chairman of the House's Oversight and Government Reform Committee today demanded that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice respond to 11 outstanding requests for information sent by his office since 2003. The letters primarily concerned claims later proved erroneous on the threat posed to the United States by Saddam Hussein's government in the run up to the Iraq War.

Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) warned Dr. Rice that a failure to respond to his committee's inquiries undermined Constitutional governance.

"Refusing to allow officials to testify before Congress...or ignoring congressional requests for information, as you apparently ignored my inquiries, are not consistent with our constitutional system of government," said the Committee's Chairman in a letter released today.

Waxman's letter stated that he was seeking to learn more about a variety of issues from the Secretary of State, including her "role in the President's false assertion that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger."

LINK

Alice said...

I saw that on tv NC....the fucking asshole hit the woman four times in the face, pushed her down & stole her 33 dollars....it was on video...

Alice said...

Obvious, but still...


Military action against Iran would backfire on Israel, report warns

Military action against Iran would backfire against Israel, which in turn would face "dire and far-reaching" consequences, a leading British foreign policy think-tank believes.

Chatham House says in a report that it is "widely assumed" that preparations are "well under way" in both America and Israel for military action against targets related to Iran's nuclear programme. The report by Yossi Mekelberg examines the possible responses by Iran, which may retaliate with massive ballistic missile attacks on Israeli cities such as Tel Aviv or Haifa, resulting in "substantial loss of life".

Israel's relations with moderate Arab states would also be harmed, as any military attack would be seen as an offensive against the Muslim world and would fuel Islamic extremism.

"An Israeli military operation against Iran would hurt Israel's long-term interests. It would be detrimental to Israel's overall security and the political and economic consequences would be dire and far-reaching," the report warns.

Israel says the issue of curbing Iran's suspected nuclear weapons programme is a problem for the international community. But it has been made clear by the Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, that if the international community failed to prevent Iran from obtaining a weapon, Israel would take the steps to do so.

While the report describes such a possibility as remote, it says that if diplomatic efforts fail, "the US and Israel would feel that force is justified and might act militarily either together or separately, regardless of international consent. This could have disastrous consequences."

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/03/12/18375802.php

:) said...

dada said...

Socialism is for lovers.

March 12, 2007 1:38 PM

Alice said...

The Debate About The Secret

toniD said...

Libya says US to help build nuclear power plant
Published: Monday March 12, 2007



The United States is to help Libya to build a first nuclear power plant under an agreement to be signed soon, the official JANA news agency reported Monday.

The Libyan parliament, the General People's Committee (GPC), gave its approval Sunday for the foreign ministry to sign the deal, JANA said.

"The agreement aims at establishing a nuclear station in Libya to produce electricity, desalting water, and developing the radiochemistry performance at energy research centres," it said in an English-language dispatch.

Libya was long accused by Western governments of seeking to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

But in late 2003 Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi renounced all attempts to develop a non-conventional arsenal, clearing the way for the restoration of diplomatic relations with the Unites States in May last year.

LINK

Anonymous said...

i think a massage table is not one of those things that should be bought used...

but that is me

-conbo

Alice said...

From Missy's blog:

Molten Metal WTC Thermite

toniD said...

US mortgage lender loses credit, sparking fallout fears
Published: Monday March 12, 2007



A major player in the high-risk segment of the US mortgage market said Monday its credit was being cut off, prompting renewed concerns about fallout into the overall financial system.

New Century Financial, the second largest lender of so-called "subprime" mortgages, said all its lenders had cut off or announced their intention to cut off credit.

Shares in New Century, down 90 percent since the start of the year, were suspended on the New York Stock Exchange and other lenders in the sector saw their stocks tumble.

This means the company "will have to declare bankruptcy during the next few days as they have no means of financing," said Fred Dickson, analyst at DA Davidson.

Additionally, the news "could extend concerns from that troubled institution to its lenders," Dickson added.

LINK

Audrey Farber said...

Has anyone seen my script?

Q. said...

Is anyone looking for your script?

dada said...

I was looking for it. I found this: GIJOE: Bazooka saw a Sea Serpent.
Is this your script?

http://www.propadeutic.com/transcripts/bazooka.html

Anonymous said...

//: GIJOE: Bazooka saw a Sea Serpent.//

LMFAO!!!

-conbo

dada said...

"Alice said...

The Debate About The Secret "

+++

Sometimes I think that the Will is like a small sailboat on a big ocean in strong winds.

gotta run...

Anonymous said...

James Carville thinks Jeb Bush will run

-conbo

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

ME Says Victim Found In Far Rockaway Fire Was Murdered

Police Man who posed as cop and raped girls pleads guilty

toniD said...

FLASHBACK: Cheney Once Warned Of ‘Quagmire’ From An Open-Ended Commitment In Iraq »
Today in a speech delivered at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Vice President Cheney assailed Iraq war critics for pursuing “an anti-war strategy that’s been called slow bleed.” Cheney added, “They’re not supporting the troops, they are undermining them.” Watch it:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi attacked Cheney’s remarks, saying, “It is a disservice to our military personnel for President Bush and Vice President Cheney to continue to advocate for an open-ended commitment in Iraq, while brushing aside the advice of military leaders and the bipartisan Iraq Study Group, all of whom argue that the war in Iraq cannot be resolved militarily but only through diplomatic, economic and political means.”

The true “slow bleed” strategy is leaving U.S. troops mired in the middle of an Iraqi civil war. There was a time when Cheney recognized that. On April 7, 1991, appearing on ABC’s This Week, Cheney said:

Well, just as it’s important, I think, for a president to know when to commit U.S. forces to combat, it’s also important to know when not to commit U.S. forces to combat. I think for us to get American military personnel involved in a civil war inside Iraq would literally be a quagmire. Once we got to Baghdad, what would we do? Who would we put in power? What kind of government would we have? Would it be a Sunni government, a Shi’a government, a Kurdish government? Would it be secular, along the lines of the Ba’ath Party? Would be fundamentalist Islamic? I do not think the United States wants to have U.S. military forces accept casualties and accept the responsibility of trying to govern Iraq. I think it makes no sense at all.

LINK

toniD said...

GOP Sen. to Block Attorney Bill?
By Paul Kiel - March 12, 2007, 11:08 AM
Last Thursday, the administration abruptly dropped its opposition to a bill that would require Senate confirmation for U.S. attorney replacements. But Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) "still intends to object," Roll Call reports (sub. req.).

Just how disruptive that objection will be is up to Kyl. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) intends to bring the legislation up for a vote "as quickly as possible," his spokesman tells Roll Call. By the rules of the Senate, which give individual senators considerable power to stymie legislation, Kyl could gum up the works with his objection, or he could simply sound his disapproval and let the bill come up for a vote.

Kyl has already blocked the bill, authored by Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), once. Republicans blocked it a second time when Feinstein tried to attach it as an amendment to another bill.

The bill, co-sponsored by Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA), would reverse a change slipped into the colossal PATRIOT Act reauthorization bill in December of 2005, by Specter's chief counsel, Michael O'Neill. Feinstein's bill simply restores the law to the way it was before that change.

Before the change, the attorney general was allowed to appoint replacements for fired or retiring U.S. attorneys, but if the president hadn't nominated someone for Senate confirmation after 120 days, the local federal judge appointed a replacement. The law change removed that 120 day requirement, effectively allowing the administration to install appointments indefinitely without Senate confirmation.

Kyl (and until recently, the administration) has cited separation of power concerns as his objection to Feinstein's bill.

LINK

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Bronx Assisted Living Employee Indicted for Stealing from Residents

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Asian Long-Horned Beetle Threatens Trees On Staten Island

toniD said...

Poll: Americans are worried about global warming. A new Gallup poll finds that a majority of Americans are worried about the effects of global warming, including more powerful hurricanes (69 percent), more common flooding/droughts (67 percent), and rising ocean levels (63 percent). A recent Fox News poll found that 82 percent of Americans believe global warming exists.

LINK

ralph spoilsport said...

SHADOW VALLEY CONDOMS

If you lived here...

you'd be home by now!

Crank Bait said...

I have read the so-called "troll" comments on a so-called "liberal" blog (and others) and I have noted the trap that we all enter whilst trying to discuss our society (and the societies of others), its past successes and failures and the best routes to its future successes using a wise and fair distribution of resources to address our needs.

The trap is the rapid and random switching between arguments based on pragmatism and the arguments based on ideology.

Of ideology I think that we can all agree that all resources should benefit all members of our society equally.

"Resources" are defined as the whole ball of wax: Tax money invested by our government in various (and all) pursuits. To this end, "resources" are tax monies invested in legislative sessions and tax monies devoted to caring for an infant found in a dumpster. "Resources" are everything that we, as a society, have to invest in furthering and improving our society.

And so, we can toss ideology out the window. The ideology that we operate under, at its core, is socialism. The Capitalist purists will argue against this point until the cows come home but they will happily transport their goods over a network of highways provided under a collection of tax monies that were (and are) invested in the national highway system.

The Capitalist purists will happily sell products to a governmental system of National Defense, while the governmental system of defense remits to the vendors from a collection of monies extracted from all of society in the form of taxation.
-----------
That said, the Ideologists and the Pragmatists are always in conflict with one another. The Ideologist wants to move toward a theoretically better society and the Pragmatists want to fix whatever is wrong with the current one, piece by piece. In my opinion, it is inevitable that more Socialism will be blended into our society because more Capitalism is impossible to achieve.

For instance, while poverty is a societal problem, Capitalism is a portion of the solution; more and better jobs reduce poverty and, thus, crime and the inability to afford health care, education, etc.

But Capitalism is not the entire solution because poverty, under Capitalism, will always exist for various reasons.

Health Care is an excellent case in point (and one of the most important, along with ecological concerns). Capitalism dictates that some people will be able to afford used cars (or no cars) but not new or luxury automobiles. If this is applied to health care, then we create a caste system for misery and death.

I don't see any future for our society with ideologues in control. I can only imagine that pragmatists will move us forward through their focuses on individual failings in our societal system.

By way of another "fer instance", the national election system (the Electoral College vs. the Popular Vote and the manner in which the votes are cast and tallied) is not an ideological issue. It is all about pragmatism. True Conservatives and true Liberals agree that votes should be counted accurately and fairly regardless of who cast the vote.

Pragmatists, like myself, smile wryly and mutter to ourselves, "That's socialistic but, more importantly, it's pragmatic."

toniD said...

TPM Readers are telling us that on Hardball Andrea Mitchell just said that polls show the public supports a pardon of Scooter Libby. Were you watching Hardball? Did you hear her say that?

Late Update: TPM Reader MK says she TIVOed it and the exact quote was "and appeal to the polling which indicates that most people think, in fact, that he should be pardoned, Scooter Libby should be pardoned." We'll work on confirming that and getting you video. But where'd Andrea hear that? My impression is that that's wildly at odds with the actual polling data. More soon.


Later Update: TPM Reader NA and NG heard it too.

Still Later Update: I'm curious where Mitchell heard her numbers. Maybe the EOP poll? CNN came up with 18% of Americans supporting a pardon and 69% opposing.

-- Josh Marshall

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/012979.php

pissed off old guy said...

America has always been a right wing sandbox and one way or the other, it will remain so....at least until it collapses on itself.

This poor, fucked up place is owned and operated by "Death Monkeys." This surge in Iraq is an example of how Death Monkeys operate. These people that are being sacrificed are only being offed because the Death Monkeys have no jobs for them at home and it's much cheaper to kill them off than to have to hospitalize and rehabilitate them.

m the a-c said...

Rachel Maddow: "Hopefully if anyone ever works at the Air America web department ever again..."

Now it's all falling into place.

Anonymous said...

I am a prattler myself, crank bait

blah blah blah

nice post

-conbo

toniD said...

The news is going on and on about Hagel's non news story today. Big announcement was what they were saying all weekend. Then finally announcement time came and Hagel is still considering.

Actually I think this is kind of funny. I think he is going to wait to see how things play out. He's got some time yet.

I still think it is a longshot that any republican will be president.

Alice said...

No heroes
March 12th, 2007 by Andreas
http://eskar.dk/andreas/blog/?p=225

...
Unfortunately, Mogensen and de Zengotita’s arguments seem to lead to a fairly cynical outlook on life. As love and hope and other human emotions are no longer original but rather copies to be acted out as if in some method acting workshop, we seem to cease to be human, but rather just mediated copies of copies trapped in some labyrinthine post-modern mirror-reality which even our would-be heroes can do nothing but perpetuate, not only strengthening its grip on us but also making it seemingly impervious to change.

It is this fear that the activist essayist Mogensen quotes is trying to convey: How do you oppose a system so penetrating that even your opposition becomes part of it as well as a struggle to be reported, analyzed, mediated and sold? Would it be better to stop struggling?

Rather than stop, they try other tactics to negate the effects of the system. They adopt DIY ethics for their cultural production. They resist copyright law, distributing text, music and images for free. They present themselves to the media only rarely, and as a group rather than as individuals. They wear black ski masks or pink wigs to disguise their identities like superheroes like Batman, Daredevil or Subcomandante Marcos (heh). They become an outwardly uniform group where all are as one to avoid building anyone up as leaders or heroes, consciously making themselves less mediated, less “real” in order to turn themselves into mythical symbols of the ideals for which they fight.

Those ideals are what Mogensen cynically labels as copies of old passion. But they can also be seen as a rebellious desperation caused by that same lack of passion. It is with such a cry for pure, unmediated human emotion that the activist essay ends:

At times you come close to real feeling. In moments you make a difference. It is enough to make it worth living. It is enough to make you feel human. It is more than most can hope for. So once in a while we throw our hearts through the windows. Because we have to. And at times, they beat.

toniD said...

Yep Andea Mitchel did say the "most people" are for a pardon for Scooter Libby.

Just watched it and heard it with my own ears.

How can she make a comment like that? She is not most people. Maybe they should have called here into testify in the Libby Trial. She's giving sloppy news in her old age. Must be her husband's influence. She is married to Greenspan.

Get a JOB said...

The ideology that we operate under, at its core, is socialism. The Capitalist purists will argue against this point until the cows come home but they will happily transport their goods over a network of highways provided under a collection of tax monies that were (and are) invested in the national highway system.


Bottom Line says..

I have no problem banning people who don't pay taxes from the Highway. They may use secondary and unpaved roads, but must pay taxes to use the highway system.

This would not only reduce congestion, but would also reduce highway maintenance costs. My system would add new emphasis to the old saying, "Get at job!"

Anonymous said...

Former President Bush has a run in with Reality...

heh

-conbo

Anonymous said...

I heard Andrea Mitchell make that comment too, about most people wanting Libby pardoned, and I was expecting the other two guys on the panel to comment but David Gregory ended the segment after she spoke. Oh well.

George H.W. Bush said...

Turns out, Global Warming, could be
real!

Oh well

I will just live out the rest of my days in my air conditioned mansion that I can afford to cool with all my oil money.

bwhahahaha [cough] hahahaha

Anonymous said...

andrea mitchell is on crack

don't watch TV news

each and every person you see is somehow mentally off

lying, on drugs, idealogues, whatever

all we have is Keith Olberman

-conbo

brain in gear said...

Get a job....your system would put a hell of a lot of hotels, motels, restaurants, etc. out of business in a New York minute. Are you sure you don't want to rethink that crazy idea of yours.

Anonymous said...

Too true conbo. We have Keith and Bill Maher, with whom I agree about 90% of the time.

toniD said...

In Iraq, No Room at The Inn for Auditors
By Paul Kiel - March 12, 2007, 4:04 PM
How strained are resources in Iraq? So strained that the State Department can't afford for three auditors to make a three month visit.

The State Department recently turned down a request for three congressional auditors to make a three-month stay in Baghdad, saying that having them around for that long would be "a serious challenge to mission resources."

In response, 22 Senate Democrats, led by Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA), have called on Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice to make room. "American taxpayers are currently being asked to spend approximately $3,420 every second and $280 million per day in Iraq," reads a letter to Rice sent today. "It is imperative that GAO be given the access it needs to serve as the eyes and ears of the United States Congress...."

But the burden of having those three auditors around would seem almost insurmountable... or at least that's the impression a State Department official gave in a letter to Harkin last week:

"each of [the auditors] would require lodging, extensive support services, security, computers, and other administrative support, as well as the attention of our staff in Baghdad in responding to their requests and inquiries."
You can read the entire letter here. The State Department turned down the GAO's request for a three-month stay, agreeing only to a two-week visit -- although the official pointed out that even that "will place considerable burden on Embassy staff and resources."

In the letter sent to Sec. Rice today, the Democrats didn't buy that argument, asking instead that the State Department make room for a six-month stay for the auditors.

LINK

Anonymous said...

//your system would put a hell of a lot of hotels, motels, restaurants, etc. out of business in a New York minute. Are you sure you don't want to rethink that crazy idea of yours.//

he should work for Bush

privatize the freeways!

what could go wrong?

-conbo

Anonymous said...

I like Bill Maher, but he wears too much makeup

-conbo

Get a Job said...

//your system would put a hell of a lot of hotels, motels, restaurants, etc. out of business in a New York minute. Are you sure you don't want to rethink that crazy idea of yours.//

Bottom line Says -

Your thinking the unemployed, no tax paying, second-class citizen are keeping all those businesses going? I don't think so. Maybe McDonald's!

In addition it would save fuel. If you don't have a job you must obey the secondary road speed limits. Think of all the mom and pop shops you could stop in and see on old route 66!

Crank Bait said...

brain in gear said...
Get a job....your system would put a hell of a lot of hotels, motels, restaurants, etc. out of business in a New York minute. Are you sure you don't want to rethink that crazy idea of yours.
----------------------------------
Dear brain in gear,

The rebuttal that you make to the ideological argument posted by "get a job" merely serves to illustrate the reason for my post: Ideologues are not the salvation of our society and their arguments fall short. They natter their ideology without consideration for what IS, how it came to be, and what can be done to improve it.

Using his (or her) logic, free use of the highway systems would be dependent upon the amount of taxes paid by the user.

It is entirely possible that he (she) has exceeded his/her free allotment of the use of said highways, which was provided to him (her) by a society that made the initial investment before he (she) was born.

And it ain't just driving on them. It is eating the food hauled over them, burning the fuel transported over them, reading the mail...

He/she could not survive in the manner to which he/she has become accustomed if his/her contribution determined his/her right to the use of the fruits of American society, past and present.

right wing boobs said...

Get a job and love it or
leave it!

These are the two favorite platitudes of flat earthers.

Anonymous said...

tolls on the freeway-that would never work

the only way it could work is if the US creates a national public transportation system that is dirt cheap and effective

-conbo

dada said...

Watching Olbermann...

"Xenu & Mr. King"

hahaha!

Crank Bait said...

Ambulance Driver: "How much tax money have you contributed to the state and federal highway systems, how many miles have you travelled on them, and how many goods and services have you availed yourself of that have also utilized said highways?

Ambulance Passenger: "Fuck, I don't know! My chest hurts and my arm is numb!"

Ambulance Driver: "In that case, we're taking the dirt roads. I hope that you've paid enough county taxes to justify it."

Crank Bait said...

You know what I like about ideologues who base their arguments on their own versions of Utopia?

They are dumber than dirt.
------
(It's also what I don't like about them.)

toniD said...

If you are so inclined...

The AHA is one of seven organizations that are part of the Secular Coalition of America . Jfs







March 12, 2007

Thank Rep. Pete Stark for acknowledging his nontheism

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~



Dear Secular Coalition activist,



With your support, we made history today. Rep. Fortney H. "Pete" Stark (D-Calif.) openly self-identifies with the nontheist community. He is the first member of Congress to be on record as not holding a god-belief. For more information please read our press release, linked from our home page announcement: http://www.secular.org/



Please show your support to Rep. Stark. We can only guess what the reaction to this announcement will be from certain communities. It is very important that you, other nontheists and our theist allies, contact Rep. Stark to thank him for his brave and historic decision. See our Action Alert at http://www.secular.org/activism/thank_stark_070312.html for a sample letter and a link to Rep. Stark's e-mail form. Please also share this email with others so that Rep. Stark receives as many positive responses as possible.



Sincerely,

Lori Lipman Brown, Director/Lobbyist



The Secular Coalition for America

http://secular.org

toniD said...

Somehow I got on Chuck Hagel's email list. He just sent me his speech from today with no explanation.

He will not run. I just think he wanted to give it to Bush and his adorers!

toniD said...

Pat Buchanan is on Scarborough ranting again. He's sounding like a grouchy old man! And his voice is worse than ever. Like nails on a chalk board.

dada said...

"Your thinking the unemployed, no tax paying, second-class citizen are keeping all those businesses going? I don't think so. Maybe McDonald's!

In addition it would save fuel. If you don't have a job you must obey the secondary road speed limits. Think of all the mom and pop shops you could stop in and see on old route 66!"

+++++++++

That's nonsense. Irrelevent fantasy.

We've been down this road before...

Big corporations use the highways more than anyone. So they should be paying the most taxes.

Get a Job said...

And it ain't just driving on them. It is eating the food hauled over them, burning the fuel transported over them, reading the mail...


The bottom line says -

Tax paying business adding to the gross national product. It's it the tax payer who supports those roads and those businesses. Your dirt-road drivin, no tax payin, second class citizen is without financial input. I has always been so.

Highways are just one example of how the working man carries the loafers in this world. Your bums got less because they earn less.

Get a Job, you owe it to this country to produce something.

toniD said...

Don't even bother with get a job. He won't listen anyway and he's just being spiteful and moronic and imperialistic.

Course it's people like that that won't go fight in Iraq and scream suppoert the troops with their magnets, but don't give a crap!

By the way, just got another Hagel email with a new web site.

Here it is:

http://www.hagel.tv/test/index.asp

Get a Job said...

It's the tax payer who built them roads. Not some redistribution wantin, no tax payin, out of work, livin of the fat of the land fucker who built em. He never built nothin!

And no one is going to pay another dime until he gets a job!

toniD said...

The Democratic majority in Congress is heading toward an Iraq War showdown with George W. Bush over his $105 billlion funding request.

The Democratic leaders want a compromise plan that would phase out a U.S. combat role in Iraq by mid-2008, while Bush is demanding that he be given the money without "strings."

Are Democrats still afraid that Bush can retaliate by blaming them for undermining the troops? Or are American voters so fed up with Bush's war bungling that they'd be angrier if Congress gave Bush another blank check?

For the full story of who should be more worried about a head-to-head clash on Iraq, go to Consortiumnews.com at http://www.consortiumnews.com.

dada said...

"Highways are just one example of how the working man carries the loafers in this world. Your bums got less because they earn less."

++++

Corporate welfare is the burden on the working man.

toniD said...

Get a Job said...
It's the tax payer who built them roads. Not some redistribution wantin, no tax payin, out of work, livin of the fat of the land fucker who built em. He never built nothin!

And no one is going to pay another dime until he gets a job!

Then you owe me lots of money. I've been paying for those roads for almost 50 years. Get out your checkbook and send the money boy!

Anonymous said...

You want to stop that war get you ass over there and tell them to stop. You remember the human-shields? Flight leaves tomorrow. Typing on the blog ain't gonna stop nothin. Put a flower in their ak47's.

Anonymous said...

You must be one of them out of work, produce nothing bums. They always end up in a place like this. Hangin out, waiting for a hand-out. Wanting someone to work for them.

Well it will never happen. God put your lazy ass in the wrong country. You're screwed!

Alice said...

Bush Pays a Visit to Brazil

...
Washington thus needs a middle-man to mediate its relations with these leaders, and Brazil has been considering this interlocutor role as an avenue to consolidate its hemispheric leadership position.
...
According to the Brazilian Sugar-Cane Union Industry (UNICA), Brazil and the U.S. alone are responsible for 70% of all ethanol produced in the world. The sugar-cane technology used by Brazil can produce ethanol for $0.83/gallon, while production costs for U.S. corn-based ethanol are $1.14/gallon, up to one third more. Therefore, the U.S., to the great annoyance of Brasília, has established protective tariffs at $0.54/gallon for Brazilian ethanol refineries, which are anxious to send their product to the U.S. In spite of this high tariff, of the 3.8 billion liters of ethanol exported by Brazil in 2006, 2 billion went to the United States. With these numbers in mind, President Lula commented on March 5 that “if we’re going to have free trade, let’s have some free trade where we have the opportunity of buying and selling. … The high taxes that the U.S. has imposed on Brazilian ethanol simply make no sense.”

It is important to note that, according to Marco Jank, the president of the Brazilian Institute for International Trade and Negotiations (ICONE), ethanol currently constitutes 40 percent of Brazil’s domestic fuel consumption and the number is rapidly growing. Moreover, the Brazilian domestic market is currently consuming 80 percent of Brazil’s ethanol yield. For Brazilian ethanol producers, it will only be profitable to expand their operations if there is clear indication that ethanol is on its way to becoming a major international commodity. In order for that to happen, Washington would need to seriously promote ethanol consumption in the U.S., which was implied by President Bush in his January 22 State of the Union Address. Also, Washington has not indicated under whose auspices the ethanol mobilization effort would take place. Would the Bush Administration sanction the promotion of ethanol under anything other than the traditional privately owned commercial channels? If public funds are to be used, will Exxon-Mobile win what could be a multi-hundred billion dollar gambit, over some worker-owned credit unit?
...

Anonymous said...

:NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Hey toniD,

How are you?

toniD said...

:NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Hey toniD,

How are you?

Fair NC. A little better than yesterday.

How about you? Doing okay?

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Oops.

Hi Alice,

Didn't see you there :)

Alice said...

Working is the burden of the working person....

Anonymous said...

Hanging in...

dada said...

"You want to stop that war get you ass over there and tell them to stop. You remember the human-shields? Flight leaves tomorrow. Typing on the blog ain't gonna stop nothin. Put a flower in their ak47's."

+++++

That's funny. I thought we liberal blogs were making the US lose the war. Undermining morale, emboldening the terrorists. Now we're ineffective.

Make up your mind, flip-flopper.

Crank Bait said...

Ideologue: "Freeloaders shouldn't have the same access to the fruits of a collective society that the rest of us tax-paying members do!"

Pragmatist: "Okay. Give me a call when they are clogging your Emergency Rooms, hanging-out in front of your gated communities, engaging in a burgeoning black-market economy, and generally creating a "second" society that operates outside of the bounds of your rules."

Ideologue: "They can't do that!"

Pragmatist: "Wanna bet?"

Alice said...

crystal cave

of the giants

Anonymous said...

//Well it will never happen. God put your lazy ass in the wrong country. You're screwed!//

All of our asses are in the wrong country at the moment

And we are all screwed.

-conbo

Crank Bait said...

toniD said...
I've been paying for those roads for almost 50 years. Get out your checkbook and send the money boy!
---------------------------------
The national driving average is over 13,000 miles per year. I drive less than 7,000 miles per year.

Do I get a credit?

Crank Bait said...

Or, maybe I owe money for not driving the mileage that is the national average?

I mean, the gas tax contributes to road maintenance, right?

So do I owe money?

Star Vox said...

-------------------
Crank Bait said...

That said, the Ideologists and the Pragmatists are always in conflict with one another. The Ideologist wants to move toward a theoretically better society and the Pragmatists want to fix whatever is wrong with the current one, piece by piece.

In my opinion, it is inevitable that more Socialism will be blended into our society because more Capitalism is impossible to achieve.

March 12, 2007 3:59 PM
**********************

Crank Bait,
I enjoyed reading both of your earlier posts. I think you make some fine points.

Although I would agree that more socialism is inevitable, I wonder how long it will be before more "blending" occurs.

Unfortunately, the Bush administration has successfully given "government" a worse name. (I believe this is Bush's crowning achievement and his reign is not over yet).

As Americans lose faith and have less confidence in government, there is often a backlash.

Rather than supporting government programs, citizens choose to vote against taxes and funding for essential services which they depend on in our society. There is a "disconnect" with citizens on this point. (I would add that I mutter about this).

--------------------------

Pragmatists, like myself, smile wryly and mutter to ourselves, "That's socialistic but, more importantly, it's pragmatic."

***************

Good to know that I am not the only one that mutters similar statements.

(Currently, I am muttering about this blog as I attempt to post a comment).

toniD said...

WASH POST: Bush & CEOs Say SEC Has "Too Many Lawyers Who Enforce Rules"

The Washington Post today reports that in recent weeks, "stock markets shuddered because of concerns that risky mortgage loans are cracking the foundation of the housing sector" while "federal grand juries indicted managers who gamed compensation documents to guarantee themselves fat paydays." That has led to the Securities and Exchange Commission's announcement "that it is hunting for evidence of rampant insider trading that cheats average investors." So what, pray tell, is the response from the Bush White House and Corporate America? Pledges to clean up its act? Promises to crackdown on fraud? Absolutely not. Instead, we get CEOs and the Bush administration saying there are too many regulators enforcing the rules.

For the full post, go to:
http://www.workingforchange.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=469CEA71-E0C3-F08F-9C0376D4561B9884

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Oops again.

That anon was me. :)

I'm hanging in toniD...

Anonymous said...

//It's the tax payer who built them roads. Not some redistribution wantin, no tax payin, out of work, livin of the fat of the land fucker who built em. He never built nothin!//

I really hope this is satirical. If not-I thihk you are crazy.

You can keep your dumb ass freeway. Go play in it as a matter of fact.

-conbo

the country is crazy. it is.
24 hour/crazy talk propaganda has produced this

Anonymous said...

That's funny. I thought we liberal blogs were making the US lose the war. Undermining morale, emboldening the terrorists. Now we're ineffective.

Make up your mind, flip-flopper.//


That's whole point isn't it? If you want to stop the war, go tell the terrorists, don't waste your time here.

Anonymous said...

Look you right wing idiots:

This is not from the Onion!
This is real news! Thanks for being dumb enough to be brainwashed. You have ruined my country! I think brainwashing is a choice. I do. I have no pity anymore

//WASH POST: Bush & CEOs Say SEC Has "Too Many Lawyers Who Enforce Rules"//

-conbo

Anonymous said...

Looks to me like you shot your highway example all full of holes. Looks to me like you need a better socialist ideal.

Alice said...

the "terrorists" are the US government....

dada said...

"That's whole point isn't it? If you want to stop the war, go tell the terrorists, don't waste your time here."

+++++

But we love war, why would we want to stop it?

dada said...

"Looks to me like you shot your highway example all full of holes. Looks to me like you need a better socialist ideal."

Ya, the "let the poor ride on dirt roads" idea was a little silly.

Crank Bait said...

Star Vox,

The "more government is bad" notion is difficult to argue with even though government is the only thing standing between the "people" and powerful/well-funded self interests.

Recently I butted my head against the "more government is not the solution" argument with my brother who is no slouch in the thinking department. He, for instance, believes that the Federal government should continue to mandate the education of children but should not be in the business of micro-managing how education is accomplished from school to school.

Governance makes mistakes for a lot of reasons, the greatest of which is that governance is imperfect. Governance is driven by politics which, I think, no one would argue is perfect.

My best (and only) rebuttal to my brother was this: Imagine if no governmental regulation had ever occurred in labor, the automobile industry, banking, education, pollution, etc. Where would we be right now?

For all that governance has done wrong, it has done a few things right (or barely so).

To claim that we need LESS of it is to accept that we will lose as much of the good it could have done as well as the bad.

Anonymous said...

Maybe all we need is the department of motor vehicles

:)

Everything else can go by the wayside.

-conbo (i am kidding)

Alice said...

How do you know that the "good" couldn't be (or have been) accomplished in some other than governmentally regulated way?

Anonymous said...

FEMA could be eliminated and Homeland Security. Neither one of those organizations really accomplish much. While we are it, I think the Pentagon is useless too.

-conbo

Crank Bait said...

Anonymous said...
Looks to me like you shot your highway example all full of holes. Looks to me like you need a better socialist ideal.
-----------------------------------
The highways are only one example among many.

The Defense network is as socialistic as the highway network (we all equally benefit from it, don't we?). So is the Center For Disease Control. And farm crop subsidies. The list is nearly endless.

Every newborn baby begins life with exactly zero taxes paid. Should we increase the tax liability to its parents to counterbalance the infant's entitlement to the existing fruits of our society?

Anonymous said...

And the IRS...did you know the IRS is completey ilegal?

The money they collect goes into a private federal bank...not to pay highways as we all think.

-conbo

loose sally said...

Meat me in St. Louis!

Crank Bait said...

Alice said...
How do you know that the "good" couldn't be (or have been) accomplished in some other than governmentally regulated way?
----------------------------------
Pragmatist: "We don't know. We play the cards we are dealt."

toniD said...

Alice said...
How do you know that the "good" couldn't be (or have been) accomplished in some other than governmentally regulated way?

What way Shell?

It all comes back to some form of governing or you would have chaos.

Without rules to live by it would be worse than even Bush could cause. Look at Iraq. The leaders would come forth and coerce and threaten the others to follow.

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Hey conbo,

You ever hear of the Cross Bronx Expressway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-Bronx_Expressway

Anonymous said...

Watch this movie: American Freedom to Fascism

It's about the IRS and how they are ilegal,and how they control society through finaces.

Very good film.

-conbo

Anonymous said...

I drove on the Cross Bronx a few times.

It sucks.

http://www.nycroads.com/roads/cross-bronx/

Alice said...

Some form maybe Toni...not this form...

Crank Bait said...

toniD said...
Without rules to live by it would be worse than even Bush could cause. Look at Iraq. The leaders would come forth and coerce and threaten the others to follow.
---------------------------------
...and I would be reduced to disguising myself as a 190 lbs. pre-teen so that I could steal part-time paychecks from Park employees in the mosh pit.

no work - no food said...

Providing for the common defense is not redistribution of wealth or resources. We know what you want. But you have no right to it. And we ain't gonna give it to ya. You can earn it or you can do without.

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Dammit that was me again.

Alice said...

Pierce has a letter from the head of the IRS, at the time, explaining how it is a voluntary system and they do their best to get as many people to comply.

dada said...

The art of subverting the Enlightenment

In the 18th century, a swelling of philosophers, scientists and artists launched the Enlightenment. At its core, they argued that instead of relying on divine revelation, we should closely observe the world around us and base a rational world-view on the empirical evidence we gather. Everything good about our world, such as the miracle of modern medicine, or the birth of human rights movements, comes from this project. The Chapmans' declared aim is an old one, offered by fascists and priests for the past 300 years: to puncture and destroy it.

Jake Chapman has declared that "the Enlightenment project. ... virulently infects the earth". Let's look at an example of how this hatred animates their work.

Francisco Goya was one of the first great artists of the Enlightenment. In 1799, in his famous Caprichos etchings, he caricatured the religious figures who controlled Spain, and he lauded the secular and liberal politicians who fought against them. It was his Enlightenment commitment to showing the unvarnished truth that later made him paint war-scenes as they really were, for the first time. He stripped out the old chivalry and romance; he showed the blood and broken bodies. In 2003, the Chapmans bought some of Goya's original prints - and vandalised them.

Where Goya drew with documentary clarity the agonised victims of war, the Chapmans painted the jeering faces of clowns and puppies over them. "Goya's the artist who represents the kind of expressionistic struggle of the Enlightenment with the ancien regime," Jake Chapman explained, "so it's kind of nice to kick its underbelly."

http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/johann_hari/article2237694.ece

Anonymous said...

//Providing for the common defense is not redistribution of wealth or resources.//

The hell its not.

We all pay for the Army.

And you know what? Since you won't let me ride on your freeway, I am taking a soldier home from Iraq. I am going to go through the army website and look for one.

And he gets to keep the Uniform... heh heh

-conbo

bridge said...

I am looking for a real good liberal blog ...

... a great liberal blog on the net with lots of bloggers who can give me lots of feedback ... who think before typing and can do that without ^&%$ this and &^%$# that.

This has been my home so far - but I am thinking ahead cause things are changing and most likely for me, too (esp. in the work department).

I checked out a few already, esp. the comment section at the ususal suspects, but nothing grabs me so far ... actually, things looked pretty depressing.

But with all those hundreds of blogs ... has anyone here come across a real good one? If you can recommend a good blog please do. I would appreciate it.

Cause I need I n p u t ;-)

Anonymous said...

redistribution of wealth//

Now you know you want health care. You know you want college. You know you want housing. You really want a car. You want child care. You want retirement. You want vacations.

What you don't want is work.

dada said...

"Providing for the common defense is not redistribution of wealth or resources. We know what you want. But you have no right to it. And we ain't gonna give it to ya. You can earn it or you can do without."

++++++++

On US Military Budgets
Noam Chomsky interviewed by Ira Shorr

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19960211.htm

"the Pentagon system has long been the country's biggest welfare program, transferring massive public funds to high-tech industry on the pretext of defense and security."

Love that quote.

Anonymous said...

And you know you don't want to pay any taxes. You want the rich to pay your way. Why? Because you're lazy.

Alice said...

Hi bridge...

I hang out here & one other place...a place not fit for the likes of the news junkies...

I invited Ono there...if that tells you anything.. ;-)

toniD said...

Input on what bridge? Everything or something specific?

Anonymous said...

What you don't want is work.

March 12, 2007 7:55 PM

How do you know?

How do you know what any of us want?

To my knowlegde everyone on this blog has a job.

And you know what...making money is not the most important thing in life.

If I could I would quit my job, stay home with my son
and attend a school specifically geared towards writers. Then I would write a million books about how much you suck.

-conbo

Alice said...

That is a good quote...

Anonymous said...

Liberal is just another word for freeloader. But try as you will, this country is moving farther toward capitalism and away from your precious communism. Communism is a totally failed system.

toniD said...

Daily show! Heh!

Star Vox said...

-----------------
Crank Bait said...

The "more government is bad" notion is difficult to argue with even though government is the only thing standing between the "people" and powerful/well-funded self interests.

My best (and only) rebuttal to my brother was this: Imagine if no governmental regulation had ever occurred in labor, the automobile industry, banking, education, pollution, etc. Where would we be right now? For all that governance has done wrong, it has done a few things right (or barely so).

March 12, 2007 7:22 PM
---------------------------------

I want to be clear. I support more government programs and I am ready for more blending.

I would say the government has done many things right (although citizen activism and social movements have often been the catalyst for the establishment of government programs).

Citizens “take for granted” government services. They are just part of every day life in America.

Of course, citizens notice when the government fails (for example, the response to Katrina).

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

High Bridge...

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/HIGH%20BRIDGE/highbr.html

Crank Bait said...

bridge: "...But with all those hundreds of blogs ... has anyone here come across a real good one? If you can recommend a good blog please do. I would appreciate it..."
-----------------------------------
Try the Crank Bait Is The Bee's Knees And Here Are A Thousand Reasons Why blog.

I highly recommend it.

Alice said...

I would say the people directly participating in their own 'governing' could accomplish more than any Selected, non-representative-to-all-but-the-richest government can.

Ever.

Alice said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

Renowned environmentalist Dr. David Suzuki has stated: "What permaculturists are doing is the most important activity that any group is doing on the planet."

Anonymous said...

Alice said...
Hi bridge...

I hang out here & one other place...a place not fit for the likes of the news junkies...

I invited Ono there...if that tells you anything.. ;-)

March 12, 2007 7:58 PM

Hey man,

(rubs nose on sleeve in a nodding droopy eyed stupor with slurred speech..)

I know what you mean man.. :)

Anonymous said...

Alice said...
Hi bridge...

I hang out here & one other place...a place not fit for the likes of the news junkies...

I invited Ono there...if that tells you anything.. ;-)

March 12, 2007 7:58 PM

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Hey man,

(rubs nose on sleeve in a nodding droopy eyed stupor with slurred speech..)

I know what you mean man.. :)

Alice said...

http://www.endofsuburbia.com/

Crank Bait said...

Sample post:

Confused: "Do bees have four knees or six? I forget."

Crank Bait: "More importantly, how many knees do Catholic bees use to genuflect?"

Star Vox said...

---------------------
Crank Bait said...

Ambulance Driver: "How much tax money have you contributed to the state and federal highway systems, how many miles have you travelled on them, and how many goods and services have you availed yourself of that have also utilized said highways?
March 12, 2007 6:00 PM
--------------------------------

Hey! Where did you find an ambulance?

Since emergency services are funded by taxes, I would not be counting on ambulances or drivers.

Of course, you are probably one of the high falutin' few who has connections with some corrupt contractor. (They will allow you to ride in an ambulance for an undisclosed fee).

By the way, where is the ambulance going?

Have you paid for reservations at a private hospital in advance? You would not be counting on a hospital supported by the government, would you?

Alice said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Hey man,

(rubs nose on sleeve in a nodding droopy eyed stupor with slurred speech..)

I know what you mean man.. :)

March 12, 2007 8:18 PM



Oh Ha Ha Ha.....at least I appear somewhat sober in that bunch... 8-)

They talk about politics too..but with a different perspective generally speaking...

Alice said...

Doesn't matter anyway...all paths are the same...leading nowhere..

:)

WaitingForCicero said...

Road To Nowhere, Talking Heads

bobby badfingers said...

George W. Bush eats shit!!!

Pass it on!!!

air-ono said...

oh, FFS! n.c.
why are you littering the blog with
====================
Anonymous said...
"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

Dammit that was me again.

March 12, 2007 7:44 PM
====================
(your crime articles are bad enough)
put your nic at the top

air-ono said...

LOL!
fuck, waits

we're joined at the hip
: )

dada said...

"My best (and only) rebuttal to my brother was this: Imagine if no governmental regulation had ever occurred in labor, the automobile industry, banking, education, pollution, etc. Where would we be right now?

For all that governance has done wrong, it has done a few things right (or barely so).

To claim that we need LESS of it is to accept that we will lose as much of the good it could have done as well as the bad."

++++++

Crank, you sound like Chomsky there:

"Sometimes there is a more illegitimate institution which will take over if you do not support this illegitimate institution. So, if you're concerned with people, let's be concrete, let's take the United States. There is a state sector that does awful things, but it also happens to do some good things. As a result of centuries of extensive popular struggle there is a minimal welfare system that provides support for poor mothers and children. That's under attack in an effort to minimize the state."

"If you care about the question of whether seven-year-old children have food to eat, you'll support the state sector at this point, recognizing that in the long term it's illegitimate. I know alot of people find that hard to deal with and personally I'm under constant critique from the left for not being principled. Principle to them means opposing the state sector, even though opposing the state sector at this conjuncture means placing power into the hands of private totalitarian organizations who would be delighted to see children starve. I think we have to be able to keep those ideas in our heads if we want to think constructively aout the problems of the future. In fact, protecting the state sector today is a step towards abolishing the state because it maintains a public arena in which people can participate, and organize, and affect policy, and so on, though in limited ways. If that's removed, we'd go back to a dictatorship or say a private dictatorship, but that's hardly a step towards liberation."

Why Crank, you old anarchist....

air-ono said...

hey, waits
a favour, please

see if you can grab an mp3 of the j&m chains "here comes alice"

(gratsi)

air-ono said...

yo, bobby badfingers

i'd love to get my hands on you, arsehole

Anonymous said...

"NEWS CONSUMER" said...

"I Can't Get Started" Billie Holiday 1938 02:46

sal the mook said...

Hey ono...some guy named Leonard was here today and said to tell you that you're a dipshit and that he's better looking than you!

Alice said...

Ono... He's hideous...but you can't look away.... :)

Anonymous said...

i'd love to get my hands on you, arsehole

March 12, 2007 8:55 PM

would you "pluck his eyes out?"

Alice said...

Kramer trivia

Q: What would Kramer name a kid if he had one?


Isosceles Kramer.

air-ono said...

just dropping by for afew

(to unload my bad mood on afew)
: )

WHIP!
ME!
JESUS!

Alice said...

Some of Kramer "schemes"

- Importing "Cubans" to roll cigars

air-ono said...

LOL! @ //would you "pluck his eyes out?"//

the 24/7 arsehole...

LOL
(puke!)

bridge said...

toniD,

I am looking for a site where bloggers are not so agenda-driven and consequently rude and crude (like, for instance, at dkos, HuffPost, and especially Steve Gilliard (Yikes!)... those I checked out so far and a few others) and can discuss politics and the social and cultural stuff without immediately falling into the deep morass of bias.

Where bloggers are serious (not easy to find on the internet IMO) and appreciate a lengthy comment, analysis, even a rant - and will respond by adding something new to the discussion. Thats what I am looking for really.

I know from experience - all the way back in the 90s when I stumbled on my first blog on the net - it all depends on the webowner.

---
thanks, Shells,
you have given me plenty of input so far :)

dada said...

"protecting the state sector today is a step towards abolishing the state because it maintains a public arena in which people can participate, and organize, and affect policy, and so on, though in limited ways."

What could be more liberal than that?

Alice said...

I heard Chomsky say that....I wasn't sure then & not sure now ...

--though in limited ways.--

to me that's a BIG point..I'm not so sure that 'the state' provides those things in a limited ways..I think they sure like us to believe that they do...

Alice said...

--dkos, HuffPost, and especially Steve Gilliard--

If they aren't nice enough for you in those places...hmm....

I know a place where they're non crude and non rude...I'm not sure if they have poltical talks but I would bet there is a pod for that sort of talk there...

http://www.zaadz.com/


///same old wine from a brand new bottle.....///

air-ono said...

a moment's silence if you please:

Well we know where we're goin'
But we don't know where we've been

And we know what we're knowin'
But we can't say what we've seen

And were not little children
And we know what we want

And the future is certain
Give us time to work it out

(clip-clop)

Here we go

Anonymous said...

Every blog has some dork that calls people assholes and tells them how he'd like to get his hands on them.

It's endemic, all over the web.

Vague threats coupled with angry rhetoric. Common stuff.

Anonymous said...

"I'm Getting Sentimental Over You" Thelonious Monk Quartet 1963 07:29

Thelonious Monk Quartet

Charlie Rouse (ts) Thelonious Monk (p)
John Ore (b) Frankie Dunlop (d)
Paris, France, March 9, 1963

Alice said...

"spinning is easier than turning at any rate....."

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